Idea: Don't execute a transaction until after the next update of the oracle price on Manifold. That way nobody can profit off of knowing the source data before it updates on Manifold.

Suggestion: I think that local/global temperatures and other climate metrics could make good perpetual markets.

@CommanderKeen Definitely! Very interested in having something like this. The difficulty so far is finding something to use as a data source, but good to know there is interest here 😄

Crazy that bots are already scalping ^^

So now there IS a fee?

@ChurlishGambit yes, the fee goes to the pool on that market. We can adjust down if needed.

The fee is currently 0.1%, so if you buy bitcoin at 65,000 you need to sell above 65,065 to profit.

Two bots were raiding the pool every few seconds by trading the difference between our site and the oracle, and were making about 7k/hr, so if we didn’t implement a fee the pool would have drained and there would be no liquidity for traders

@Gen Just ban the bots. Obviously, they can't operate in markets like that. Don't spoil the fun, because it makes it hard to enjoy the site with all those movements of few minutes, and thus reduces the time users spend on the site. It was a disaster when they tried to implement it for regular markets.

@Emanuele1000 And besides, it also makes it difficult to change leverage (simply put, if I know I won’t be able to check the site for a day, I lower the leverage). Before, I would just close one position and open another; at worst, I’d lose a little if there was a change in the time between opening and closing. Now, to change leverage, I have to spend Mana to “dilute” it. I guess it makes sense to always use the minimum leverage now, but then the “funding” is higher. That’s an added burden.

@Gen Why not simply, ban bots? In the other thread there was a lot of argument in favor of the funding system as a way to avoid fees, so it's weird to turn around immediately & add a fee. Messy.

@ChurlishGambit how would you suggest we ban bots? Even if we ban API trades you can easily do what those bots were doing manually, or bot it in client wthout using API, or on an account not marked as a bot

My thinking is, it's always better to incentivise the activity you want (people holding their trades for >15seconds) than expect to be able to moderate it all manually.

I agree that fees are suboptimal, which is why when we add limit orders, those will not have fees - even though we don't actually have an orderbook, it doesn't conflict with the behaviour we want to incentivise.

These fees are also materially different to previously, because the fees gathered from this go straight into the liquidity pool. We're not taking the mana back. This means winners can run further before getting ADL'd.

@Emanuele1000 Point taken about it being difficult to change leverage, that sucks! Something for us to think about, alongside partial closes & limit orders.

@Emanuele1000 ayo you a hater :( I don’t wanna get banned, I didn’t do anything against TOS

@Gen If you can label bots, why can't you ban them?

@ChurlishGambit why would you want to ban us? That’s so harsh, we don’t deserve to be banned from this beautiful website

@Emanuele1000 Another problem caused by fees: I had a 100k short position and wanted to increase it, but by mistake I didn’t realize I’d selected “long,” and even though I bought a small long position, it completely closed out my short position. It wouldn’t be such a big deal if it weren’t for the fees, but with the fees, that means I lost 0.10%...

@Emanuele1000 I understand the frustration but banning us means banning accounts of people that spent hours building the bots thinking it’s legal. All my earned mana would disappear forever.

@JasonMendoza2008 I’m not saying we should ban the account; I’m saying we should ban bots from API-based markets, especially when, as in this case, holding long or short positions doesn’t affect market trends.

One solution could be to propose postponing the trade until the next data update; that way, even if I manage to receive the new data in advance, I still can’t take advantage of it because the trade will be executed based on the new data (in the case of markets that receive one update per day, I imagine it would be enough to “delay” trades only starting 10 minutes before the new data arrives).

@Emanuele1000 The fees are just ruining the experience. On the first day, I spent a couple of hours trading Bitcoin minute by minute and, above all, experimenting. If things went wrong, I could have closed the position right away and only lost whatever the price shift might have been. Yesterday I invested 100,000 mana, only to discover that doing so would have completely thrown off the “funding,” and it wasn’t worth it anymore, so I lost 100 mana...

who was scalping???!!!!!! 😠